Episode 73: Looking Ahead to the Season

00:00.00 bengarmoe Hello and welcome to the mock review with Ben and Drew I'm Ben Garmo well drew the mock trial season is definitely underway. There's been a lot of things going on lately and and I'm really looking forward to just having a wide ranging conversation today. 00:03.77 Drew Um, and I'm Drew Evans 00:19.79 bengarmoe Ah, just the 2 of us no guests. We don't have anyone else on the show. Ah that noise you heard is the sound of people pausing their podcast and finding something else to listen to um, but hopefully for those of you who stay with us. We've got I think a pretty interesting conversation today about a lot of things that are going on in the mock trial community. 00:27.89 Drew Ah. 00:38.13 bengarmoe Ah, but I'll kick it to you first Drew what's been going on. How's the the 2 L year of law school treating you. 00:45.90 Drew Well, honestly I am really enjoying my two l year I just joined the the tulan mock trial team at the end of my one L year um you're basically not allowed to join until then and so we've been doing a lot of prep. Um, we've got our. A final trial in the books for this winter. Um I also have a trial ad trial. Um, which that's a lot of saying the word trial but um, ah, that's ah, a class that I'm getting graded in for mock trial which is amazing and feels super fun. 01:07.14 bengarmoe Imagine that. 01:16.20 Drew Um, so definitely doing good really enjoying life and I'm helping out ah a couple of different teams. Um, both at tulane and helping out with have I've heard a little bit so I'm keeping involved with the undergraduate community as Well. So definitely trying to keep involved but I know that then you just did. Something pretty exciting. Um, which is that you hosted Empire. So Do you want to tell people a little bit about what that was like. 01:42.80 bengarmoe Yeah I definitely do so I'm going to cover 1 quick admin thing related to the podcast and I'm going to jump right into that. So ah, first of all just to let everyone know obviously this episode's being released in our regular Friday schedule. 01:44.95 Drew Oh go ahead. 01:54.11 bengarmoe But we have a fun bonus surprise for you which is we'll be back in your feeds next Friday a week from when this episode is released because the day that you're hearing this episode is actually the day that we are finally recording with Sam and elise the co-chairs of the civil case committee the committee who wrote this year's case we are. So excited to talk to them by the time you're hearing this episode ah that interview will probably have been recorded and we're going to turn right around since we know that's an episode that a lot of people really like we're going to turn around and release it the following Friday and then we'll jump right back onto our every other Friday schedule but we're going to talk more about. Getting ready for that interview later in this episode. We're super stoked for it but just wanted to let everyone know about that release schedule in terms of empire. So Drew is correct this past weekend. We're recording this ah earlier in the week that you're hearing it and this past weekend. Ah empire came to Baltimore for the inaugural camden yards classic ah and it was a lot of fun I have actually never done anything related to empire before I've never been to one of their competitions never judged 1 never coached 1 anything like that. So this was really my first empire experience. Obviously you know we had Justin and veron on the show. Ah last year and and their friends of the show and. It. It was a blast. It was really cool to have empire here in Baltimore there are 27 teams 14 different states. We had a great turnout for judges. Um, and and I guess 1 thing that I'll mention just to kind of um I'll call it humble brag. But really, it's just getting to brag. Um. 03:28.20 bengarmoe Justin was gracious enough. So so what empire did was they bought tickets for the Sunday orioles game the Sunday one o'clock orioles game for the entire tournament. So like all 200 and however, many kids judges who wanted to go coaches who wanted to go they literally bought like 300 and some tickets. To the orioles game that allowed empire to have someone actually go on the field before the game to get recognized for them selling a lot of tickets and Justin graciously allowed that person to be me. Ah so Sunday around like twelve thirty I actually got to go on the field at Camden Yards . Ah, right down the street from where I live here in Baltimore and and get to just have the experience of being on the field before a baseball game so all in all the empire experience was a blast I have some other thoughts on it but Drew I know you've been through empire competitions. You know the drill with that. Um. So yeah I don't really have a question for you but I had a really really great time being involved with empire here in Baltimore. 04:23.10 Drew Yeah. 04:29.76 Drew Yeah I will say um I remember actually when I was in high school and even when I first started out college and empire was this like thing I I had heard about I'd never competed in it but it was I thought it was this very like elitist group of you know. Oh they're just really exclusive in the empire kids. Whatever um, but I remember when um, it was my my home school galloway that I I've coached for a few years um when one of the students approached me about wanting to do mock trial over the summer and I was like well you know. There's this thing called empire and that's the best thing to do for it and um and getting to kind of help that team learn about empire competed empire and just now they've been doing it every years since I loved it. I think it's it's really a a. Very very cool experience. A really unique competition I think um it it brings a lot of things that are almost combinations of amta and the law school world and a little bit of high school world. It's ah just a very very fun and and different way of doing mock trial. But it's really very high level and and so much fun again. I think that it's always hosted at amazing sites and I'm sure that what you guys did was a fantastic one? Um I wish I could have been there honestly but it is just always run very smoothly and and really in my opinion. Um. 06:01.88 Drew The gold standard when it comes to you know a high-quality mock trial tournament I think that once you've been to empire and then you go to random invites and it's all run by college students. The the quality can sometimes take a dip but um, it's definitely a lot of fun and it's it's very cool that you got a chance to to run it. Um, with Justin and I did not know that you got to be out on the field in oriel's game. That's very cool. Um, definitely a nice perk to ah selling 200 some on tickets. But no I ah I actually was going to mention. Um, when we were talking about empire. 06:23.86 bengarmoe A. 06:38.25 Drew I love that empire really emphasizes the kind of community aspects of mock trial I think that in many ways people talk about how fun nationals is in the college world because there is such a large social component to it and there are so many things worked into that weekend that are designed as ways to. Get to know other people meet other teams. Um and socialize outside of just competing and I think that empire really understands that and does a good job of of giving that experience to high school students and I'm I'm very grateful to that I think that people. It's it's a great opportunity for people to meet other programs and other students and I I would love it if if that idea happened a lot more in in the college role I think it would make people's experience a lot better. But um, no I i. Couldn't say enough good things about empire. It really is a fantastic organization and I love what they do, but um, yeah I don't know I've been doing it for like 3 years now so I feel like it's weird that I even I I know I'm rambling a little bit right now but it's it's so odd even as I'm reflecting on this I never. 07:37.89 bengarmoe 3 07:48.11 Drew Really thought of myself as someone that was into empire. But I kind of am now. So Justin you won. 07:52.41 bengarmoe It. It was such an interesting experience I'd never I'd never been to a live empire competition and they really do make an effort to make like kind of a party atmosphere you know, like there's lots of music. 08:02.85 Drew Yeah. 08:07.32 bengarmoe And they had um the mc her name is Taylor she's I believe a competitor at Howard now and a former mta competitor. Ah, she's sang good morning Baltimore ah to start out and like I think they do a really great job with that. Um, 2 other quick observations and then we can we can move on talk about something else. So obviously you know like I mentioned I was sort of. Getting my first real experience with empire this year's case for for this competition involved an audio exhibit and I actually did the the audio was an it engineer named Barry Garmo um to you know, very carefully disguised to name and so I had a lot of students who would come up to me. And they would be like oh like you know you're Barry Garmo whatever and I would start talking back to them and they would be like oh wait a second like that's your voice like you actually recorded the actual audio and it's like yeah like they they had me had me do it so it was it was cool to be a part of it. Um, with that. The only other thing I'll mention and and Justin and I have chatted about this a little bit so empire's really cool I think they this tournament there may have been 1 or two instances where they bitd off just a tiny bit more I won't even say than they can chew but like they were really ambitious this tournament they did like. The entire tournament was enabled for virtual exhibits and an in-person tournament. So every single judge had a laptop in front of them to do the electronic ballot on process which empire uses but also teams had a Zoom connection and they could share ah like virtual exhibits. 09:39.95 bengarmoe On zoom if they wanted to and it was really really cool I think that it was you know I mean it was the first time that they did it and so there were some bumps along the way and some teams didn't really use it. Um and and it presented some logistical challenges that that the team had to work through. Um. But I guess that's kind of inevitable when you do it for the first time that's that's why you do it you you try it out. You see how it goes but I thought that was like a neat thing that they did um I don't know how sustainable that is at a larger level I know it took a lot of effort to get together all those devices and to manage everything but it was cool to see it in action and I think that um. Wall empire. You know there. There are some areas where maybe it's not everyone's cup of tea. They're certainly at the cutting edge of what mock trial is is doing and I think that competitions like that are really important for us to look and say oh maybe this thing is possible. You know you think pre pandemic did did any of us ever think that. Ah, widespread online mock trial system would be viable now I'm sure plenty of people thought that it wasn't and we were forced into figuring out that it was so always thinking about what the next thing is going to be I think is a good thing for our community. 10:48.14 Drew Yeah I couldn't agree more I think that Empire is definitely kind of on that cutting edge always trying to test out new things and and and kind of innovate for something that you wouldn't think is always innovating. But um I think I totally agree with you. 10:59.25 bengarmoe Yeah. 11:03.56 Drew And I do hope that we can start to see some of those trends um in in all of our competitions I think it'd be very very cool to try that. But I agree that it's it's one of those things where it's just a feasibility issue. But um, yeah I I think that for those that have never thought about trying empire I would definitely recommend looking into it. So Justin here's your. Brief plug. Um, but I want to kind of talk a little bit about the the Patreon and the discord for a second Ben and I I hope people aren't getting too sick of this but I really do want to emphasize to people. Um, first of all to those that have already subscribed how much we appreciate it. But to everyone else. We really hope to have more people join as a reminder. There is a free option. You can come and just join the Discord. You don't have to pay anything. We would love to see that community grow and we're really hoping that as competition starts to so pick up and we get more invites that it's really going to be a lively kind of. Marketplace of ideas where people can be talking about what's going on what they're seeing probably not sharing you know case theories. But um, there's a lot that can be discussed that I'm I'm hoping it can be that venue for and and I'll also add that we just had our first monthly Zoom call for some of our paid subscribers and. 12:17.36 bengarmoe Just and. 12:20.17 Drew I had a really great time with it. Um Ben and I were both there and we really got a great conversation had a really awesome turnout um to those of you that were there? Thank you so much for coming um and and I hope that we can see that continue to grow I think it's a great opportunity both for us to get to engage with. You our listeners but also just a chance for you to meet other people in the community and get to see them face-to-face or computer screen to computer screen. But um I really enjoyed it Ben you know what? What do you think of it. 12:53.78 bengarmoe I had a great time. It was it was really cool. We had a wide variety of different perspectives different backgrounds. We had coaches a coach or 2 that that I haven't had the opportunity to meet in person and enjoy chatting with ah we had a judge. You know someone who judges at tournaments we had several current competitors. I think it was a really good wide wide ranging conversation. Ah Drew and I got some ideas from that conversation for the interview that we're going to record with Sam And Elise so that was super helpful. Um I'm also and I want to to respond to 1 or 2 other things you said there Drew but I do want to take this opportunity. Like Drew said we're we're so grateful to everyone who's joined our community and we really truly appreciate our gold patrons who have you know taken the opportunity and chosen to support us in that way and so I do just want to shout out. Ah some of our gold patrons including Mike Romano the family of Daniel Sosa and Darius Peruch Ian Lampert Andrew Hinkley kate hayer slattery Henry Lehman felix Badacharyia Ben Rathsom and Don Martin ah that's just a partial list. We have several others ah who support us through the but through the Patreon as well and and we're just super grateful to everyone who chooses to do that and everyone who just chooses to be a part of the community. I imagine for some of you. You know you might be sick about hearing about the Patreon or the Discord. So we're not gonna dwell on it. But what I'm so excited about you know the the discord you know, be honest, right now. It's been a little slow over the last week or 2 there's not a lot going on. Everybody's just like writing materials and getting ready for invitationals and all that stuff. But. 14:23.60 bengarmoe I really think and and Drew we were talking about this before we we got started that once things get going once the season starts and you've got those invitational results coming in and you're starting to see like what teams are are showing off and what teams are really doing great stuff. That the discord is going to be alive that people are going to be talking about? Oh we're at this competition we played this team. You know, not not divulging. Everybody's theories but just talking about how exciting it is to be back on the road and and back competing in mock trial. So I love the community that we're building I think it's really great I hope that it continues growing. And if you're out there listening to this podcast and you've thought about it. You thought about hey maybe I'm going to join the discord or maybe I'll chip in the two bucks or the five bucks we hope that you do it ah because we would love to have the opportunity to talk to you I actually at empire met someone for the first time who's in our Discord and it was super cool. And I got to talk to them face-to-face and just talk about all the things that they like about the show and that they like about ah mock trial generally. So ah, that's sort of my pitch on the whole thing I think it's been going great and and the last thing that I'll mention is on our end right? having an editor we hired ah a wonderful editor who's doing a great job. The reason that we're able to turn around the Salmon Elise episode and have it out for you next week is because we have an editor There's no way not a chance that we would be able to do that without having an editor on our team now. So we're super grateful to everyone who's made that possible and yeah Drew I'm just excited to see where it goes from here. Drew Yeah Ben I couldn't agree more I'm I'm just really excited to see this community continue to grow and it's something I'm really proud of and I'm really glad that so many people have already participated in and I can't wait to see more people join. Um, but I I want to take us back for a second. Um. I think that in our last episode we got a chance to talk to amta president um Jonathan Woodward and we had a really good chat with him. But I think that um both of us. Um, kind of been. We talked a lot off the mic about kind of some of our thoughts about um, just. Ataboard the way certain things are communicated and also just some of the difficulties we've had with with reaching amta and I kind of wanted to just like take a second to talk about some of that and you know we're not trying to you know, really aggressively call anyone out. But I think that. I don't know from my end something that I will I'll just say like we talk a lot about transparency and how important that should be I am always very confused and and frankly frustrated by the idea that. There is hesitancy to talk in public about anything having to do with with amta or the amtaboard that the idea that oh because we're on the board. There is this this hesitancy and I I get the whole like okay we speak as as 1 board. Um, and all that like. 18:33.52 Drew I understand I I get not not speaking on behalf of the whole board and speaking in your individual capacity. But if you're giving that disclaimer like it just is really really odd to me why there is such a fear around talking publicly about about anything and and i. I remember a few years ago when you know Jonathan Wilbber himself did an ask me anything on I think it was on perjuries or maybe he was motraal compassion either way he definitely did a whole like you know, ask me questions you have about to have him happy to answer them. Got tons of questions did tons of answers. Justin usually to something similar for trial by combat I feel like things like that are great. We should encourage questions we should encourage you know free flow of discussion and it just I think it sometimes frustrates me when I see you know, kind of this like shadowy like oh we don't want to come into the light. Type of attitude. Um, from from the board. Frankly, um, and Ben you know I'm kind of wondering what you think about a lot of this. 19:38.25 bengarmoe Yeah, it's a really interesting topic. It's it's a little bit of like taking some of the behind the scenes podcast stuff and and talking about it in the open which I think is totally fine. Um I'll first say for you know, like honestly that that I'm super grateful to Jonathan for coming on the show. Um, you know. 19:52.19 Drew Yeah, agreed. 19:56.20 bengarmoe We we asked Brandon and if he'd be interested in coming on the show and and ultimately weren't able to work something out for him to come on. Obviously we had will on before him. We think that you know that we provide a a fair ah venue for for people from amta to come on. We'll ask. Questions we think are important to ask. But we're not here to to rip anyone apart or or to cause any problems necessarily I think that with some exceptions and I think this is getting better. But I think with some exceptions amta is not very good at communicating. Ah I think that as. 20:16.13 Drew In. 20:32.11 bengarmoe Because of the way the organization works because it's a board of directors that's not representative right? So the community doesn't have any oversight capability for the board right? If if if endureor you were saying this and we were talking earlier if a board member does something that the community doesn't like we can't impeach them. 20:38.17 Drew Um, you know. 20:46.98 Drew Um, and here. 20:51.49 bengarmoe You know like it's just the board is what the board is and they're very self-governing um that doesn't I'm not trying to say that to suggest that they're like doing like backroom deals or something but I think to what you were saying the default position is like we don't want to talk very much about what we're doing until. You know we have like this really full picture and we've got this final product and final result or or Xy and Z and to me that's not the interesting part. The interesting part isn't where we ended up the interesting part is how we got there. Um I often joke ah with with people and it's not really a joke. 21:25.84 Drew Um. 21:29.97 bengarmoe The podcast I wish we could host is the conversations that we have with people who come on before we start recording or after we start recording because and and this is not I don't mean this to say it's a bad thing but understandably when you're sort of talking with just a couple people in private. People speak very openly I've had many very frank conversations individually with members of the board and I understand why many of those conversations are private conversations. That's fine, but to me an organization that practices the type of transparency that I think amta should should. Really make an effort to say here's what we're doing here's why we're doing it and we will make ourselves available for people who have questions ah as much as possible and I think they're doing better I think Jonathan is really focusing on that I think that's a good thing rhe as committee I think you know we will help with that. But. 22:10.93 Drew Um. 22:20.69 bengarmoe I Think they could do better and and I'll be interested to see where it goes. 22:23.87 Drew Yeah I think that something that that you were saying that I I really it stuck out to me and it's something that we've definitely spoken about off the mics before Ben, but this is not something where they are held accountable by. By the students listening to this podcast by other coaches by by anyone but themselves and so to me, it's like what do you have to lose I mean sure I agree there are certain things and conversations that that don't need to be public. But. When we're talking about like the the the planning process as you were just saying man. It's it's a lot of about like they don't want to discuss it until it's been officially decided I I can understand not wanting to cause confusion. But it's important to tell people hey this is what we're working on this is what we're talking about these are the types of decisions that are in the hopper that we're thinking about making soon because then you can get some some insights from people. You can get opinions from students and and. Get advice from them instead of it all being retroactive or coming out in a board meeting agenda and people being like holy cow my whole activity is changing I just I I think that to me I won't ever understand what the fear is around. 23:49.77 Drew Having those conversations because at the end of the day I mean I'm not asking them to do this. But at the end of the day. A board member came on to the podcast and said I'm going to be changing this this and this and this is all going to change and we're going to basically not allow you to compete without a coach you have to have a coach on record. Something crazy like that and people were up in arms. Oh My God Horrible Blah Blah Blah What you can to do about it like I mean I'm not I'm not saying they should but like the honest to God Truth is that nothing would happen. There is nothing that students could really do about that shirt they can they could. Argue to the board that they shouldn't do that They should ask for a motion to be provided at the next board meeting. Whatever but isn't that the way it should work like shouldn't it be a mechanism where you then are giving students and and people that are not able to make their voice heard any other way because they don't have a vote. At least let them know what the decisions are so they can then at least share their opinions on it like it just it's odd. It doesn't make sense to me and it's just it's really honestly tiring to me that we fight this battle whenever we're we're trying to to have a conversation with someone or or engage with them. It just it's it always to me. There's always this pushback of oh well, you know can't can't I got to wait and check these few boxes I got to make sure that everything is done and it's just to me. It feels so unnecessary and I guess that like. 25:18.38 Drew But you said about the one-on-one conversations like I've had them too and and I appreciate all of the the wonderful people on the board that I'm good friends with that I speak with on regular basis. You know to me I think that I understand why there are some things that should be kept private. But. The frankness with which people are willing to talk 1 on 1 is very telling that there is a lot going on. There are a lot of things being discussed but when they aren't willing to talk about it in public. No one else can know about it and I just it. It frustrates me because it it comes back to this idea. Um, this is like a very old adage but the idea that you should never post something on the internet that you don't want your grandmadyssey I know that everyone always told me that when you know when you first got of facebook don't don't post anything without that you wouldn't want your grandma to see. Um. 26:14.14 Drew And I feel like that's the way that amta treats this as though like they're being really closely scrutinized everything that they say in public is is going to be like you know, whatever and and to me it's just there shouldn't be anything that they're saying that is. Something so problematic and bad that that it's a problem like we're we're We're not asking those questions like we're not going to come in and ask like hey who do you hate on the board like what? what? what programs? Do you really dislike like we're not going to ask those questions like we just want to know what you're doing.. What's what's going On. What are the conversations about like whether it's the new inference rules or whatever there might be going on like it's just I know we're rambling but goodness me, it's just it's something that I've just been having to deal with too much and I don't understand why. Honestly I Just don't. 27:11.56 bengarmoe Yeah, so I sort of have 2 thoughts on this the the first one to what you were you know, just saying over the last little bit I think to me it's it's more of something where this is the way. It's always been. Um I don't think anyone ever sat down and said. 27:22.44 Drew Yeah, that's true. 27:28.59 bengarmoe We're going to have most of our conversations in private I think just as the the organization grew and as the organizational structure developed it developed into an organizational structure where public conversation about what is happening in the organization is extremely rare. Um because it just. Is right? that the the midyear meeting is closed to the public and we get sort of like bare bones minutes at some point in the future and the committee conversations and committee meetings. Not the ones at the board itself but like committee meetings that happen separately. Ah. I I don't know what would happen if if I asked to be added to the you know the Zoom list or whatever for those committees but but there isn't you know an effort made to say okay, we're going to give you an update on what this committee or that committee is working on and I'll give a quick example of of what I mean by this. So ah, we talked to Jonathan about. The necessary inference proposal and we said and he agreed you know a lot of the other things that the invention committee did were great. Totally agree and I know the invention committee did some of the things that we asked that we're asking for the invention committee sent out a survey and reached out to the public. Um I've reflected a lot on the necessary in. Inference debate and the necessary inference process the way it was proposed and the way it was handled and I think that I have a lot of really really good things to say about how a lot of the other motions were handled I think the way that the proposal of a necessary inference rule was handled was a pretty significant error on amtos part. 29:01.53 bengarmoe Because it came out of nowhere for for the vast majority of people myself included and I think I'm reasonably plugged in and I was blindsided by a necessary inference proposal. There was a public conversation which is good right. And now it's kind of gone back behind closed doors and and nobody really knows and and Jonathan didn't even really get into details on what's going to happen next there and so I think for me. 29:20.67 Drew Um, but. 29:29.90 bengarmoe I'm not suggesting that every conversation needs to be out there in the open and that every person needs to immediately come on the podcast when we ask. But I think that it would benefit the community if there was a way to say you know for amta to communicate. Okay, the committee is working on this now. Ah, we'll have an update for you in the next couple months on whether or not they're going to propose something at the midyear or whether or not they're going to propose something at next year's board meeting here's what they're considering it could just be a post on impeachments. It could just be a website that amta keeps um not to. Say please reveal all your internal emails or internal phone calls but just kind of keep us posted on what you're thinking so that we can provide insight along the way the very last thing that I'll mention there is I was very encouraged to see that amsa is establishing a coaches and Alumni Advisory Council I think that's a great idea to go along with the student advisory board the more insight that the board can get the better and if the larger board structure isn't going to change which I think it should but that's a much longer conversation. Um, if it's not going to change then in the meantime. Having some increased transparency efforts and getting more insight from the broader community will help with a lot of the things we're talking about. 30:46.67 Drew Yeah I couldn't agree more I think that that's spot on and I I am really looking forward to that committee being formed um to me just like you said Ben and more more opinions can't hurt and I I'm very optimistic that. As you said ah a little while ago. Amta is moving in the right direction on this. Um I think that you're right that it's just kind of been the way that things are for a little while and I look forward to them continuing to move further and further in this direction in the future. Um, but I I don't want to belabor this too long. You know. Talk about transparency all the time I do think that there is a lot to really look forward to um on the purely mock trial competition side. It is as this is being released. It's you know I think probably October now um or about to be and um, we have some invites coming up. 31:38.84 bengarmoe Yeah, like. 31:40.46 Drew And I'm really really excited to start getting some results in like I said ah before you know we're going to have a lot more action on the Discord talking about those results but you know it's always fun when you start first getting in who's doing well who's winning awards. What? what. You know, even just if you're competing there. What theories are are working. What's not what calls are are common. Um, it's just there becomes so much more to talk about and it becomes so exciting. So I can't wait I'm really excited to see how this case runs and and Ben I know you've got charm city coming up soon. Um, you excited about it. 32:18.68 bengarmoe Ah, given that it's been 36 hours since I finished with empire. It's hard to get too excited about throwing another tournament but I am I mean look I love hosting charm city I think we throw a good tournament. It's been two years the last two years Charm City's been virtual and so this will be the first one in several years that we're doing here at the law school. 32:21.80 Drew Ah, that sigh right. 32:36.64 bengarmoe Um, I'm super excited just selfishly to get all of the teams. Especially a lot of the local teams that I know and like in the building here at Maryland where I now work. Um, which obviously it's an opportunity for me to say hey you know I hope you enjoy yourself and think about spending 3 years here when you're done. Ah, but no I am so excited for invites this year I am. Fascinated to see how this case plays out. Ah you know we just got case changes not too long ago. There wasn't a ton in terms of case changes. But I'm super interested to just see the mechanisms of this case I thought that when we talked to Anna she made some really good points about things. She's watching for with this case. And just what teams are trying to focus on and emphasize on looking forward to seeing just how utterly wrong mock analysis is my drug got everything. Um, just because nobody not because of them but just because nobody can seem to predict anything because every year is is wildly unpredictable and that's why we don't predict things. Because if we did it would probably be wrong. Um I just think that that this is a really exciting time of year and while we all still have to be very conscious that the pandemic is still ongoing and covid is still a real thing and we can't just pretend that it's not there all signs point to the ability to hopefully have. 33:43.40 Drew Um, next. 33:54.70 bengarmoe Ah, relatively normal season I've not heard of any invitationals that we're attending requiring masks this year and there's I have a lot of complicated thoughts and emotions on that but isolating just that point I'm excited to do mock trial and and what I sort of call it standard form right doing it without masks. In person the way that we know that we did it for many many years um and just kind of getting back to a season that's like that. So lots to look forward to I know the first full weekend in October or I think it's the second full weekend October Eighth and ninth we've got a few smaller invites and then some of the some of the more well-known ones the week after that. 34:28.98 Drew Um, in here. 34:32.70 bengarmoe And then the week of charm city. We've got a lot of of the major invites in the in the fall season happening so we will have a ton to talk about in our Discord a ton to break down. You know here on the show and yeah, it's just it's just a great time of year. Everybody's undefeated. Ah, you know. 34:49.31 Drew Um I Love that great sentiment to end on 34:57.83 bengarmoe Okay I know I'll oh yeah, all right I'll get it. Yep I totally agree. Obviously this was a little bit of a shorter episode just because we're in a little bit of a holding pattern we're waiting for whatever the next thing is is going to happen and I think there's going to be a lot of cool things. So. Really appreciate everyone listening. Ah, we're really looking forward to having a chat with Sam And Elise and just getting to dig into their process for talking about the case so look for that episode next week in the meantime. Thanks everyone for being here. We're super grateful to each one of you for being a part of the mock review community until we talk to you again. This has been the mock review.