Episode 78: Case Changes + Final Fall Results

00:00.00 bengarmoe Hello and welcome to the mock review with Ben and Drew I'm Ben Garmo well Drew it is our last mock review episode of 2022 it's been a very exciting year. We've covered a lot of interesting topics over the course of the last twelve months and of course. 00:04.74 Drew And I'm Drew Evans 00:19.20 bengarmoe You and I have both been involved in in mock trial you as a competitor and a coach and and me as a coach I think it's been a great year for mock trial I think it's been a great year for our community and we have a lot of really interesting things to talk about for our last episode of 2022 00:23.24 Drew Um. 00:34.42 bengarmoe Ah, we'll get to all of that. We've got a couple more results to break down from that first weekend in December we've got case changes. We've got ah Cic invention opinions. We've got case balance memos I got all kinds of interesting stuff to break down. But of course before we get into any of that. It's been a couple weeks since we've released an episode. So Drew I know that you've been hard at work ah coaching and prepping for your own mock trial competitions and of course taking exams and papers for two l year. So how's life treating you as we start to look towards 2023. 01:05.11 Drew Well I luckily finished finals in 1 piece and I actually recently found out that I'm going to be a swing competitor meaning doing both the plainff and defense for the tulane tyler team. So I'm really excited about that. We just had our first practice the other day. Um, so I'm definitely excited to to kind of resume my mock trial ah competitor days. Um, and on the coaching side. Yeah Ben you you kind of alluded to it. But it's been a lot of fun. Um the tulane team. Obviously we talked about on the last episode. What a great showing they had at Fordham. And I've been working with them a lot more just at the start of this break and I'm excited to continue to um the have Aford team had ah a really solid showing that we're going to talk about in a little bit so I'm proud of them as well. Lots lots of good going on and I'm just hoping we can ah ride that momentum through. The ah, the competitive season. 01:57.68 bengarmoe Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's such an interesting time of year for mock trial because you get kind of a flurry of activity after Thanksgiving and then of course everybody kind of has to settle in for finals and papers and all that stuff and then as soon as you get done with all that. 02:08.34 Drew Um. 02:16.12 bengarmoe You know you turn right back around and you know Tyla obviously pops up at the beginning of February for those listeners out there who aren't familiar when we say tyla. Ah, sometimes it's also referred to as Ntc Tyler stands for the Texas Young Lawyers Association ah Ntc is the national trial competition. 02:20.84 Drew Um. 02:34.15 bengarmoe And that's one of the 2 large regionals to nationals competitions that happens at the law school level. Um, Drew's going to be competing for his team at Tolanne I'll be coaching the Maryland teams that'll be competing as well. So we're both going to be participating in that competition and then of course we'll both be coaching teams at the amta level. We've got regionals coming up really soon orc soon after that and I feel like before we know it, we're gonna be talking about the national championship tournament in beautiful Memphis coming up here in April ah, but Drew of course we've got a lot of interesting results to break down I can take us to cubate in just a moment but any other broad thoughts on on. Ah. 03:07.60 Drew Um. 03:12.88 bengarmoe How things have been going with mock trial wise before we get to some amta results. 03:16.49 Drew No I think you can go ahead and take it to qbae I I'm glad you gave that breakdown for everyone all the the wonderful world of both law school ah competitive tournaments on how that all works I'm hoping to see you at out in Texas for the national competition for that. But for now we'll focus on ampta. Go ahead and take us to q 8. 03:35.15 bengarmoe Yeah, look if we both got our teams to thailer nationals that would be I would be very very happy. Um, although you know in just ah, a brief peek and it is hard and a brief peek into the window for you am to folks of. 03:39.21 Drew Um, amazing. It's harder. It's hard. 03:48.18 bengarmoe Law school mock trial dysfunction The other national competition is a a the American association for Justice which is a regional so nationalals and they decided to schedule their national championships on the same weekend. Um, because sure they did ah so that's just kind of a brief window on how things look at the law school level these days. So. 03:52.91 Drew Um. 04:06.50 bengarmoe Let's stay in amta. Let's stay right here in Midlands where we all know and love our community here and let's talk about cubate. Ah the most complicated named tournament in the country. The Columbia University big Apple Invitational tournament ah cubate ah used to be I would say sort of on the level of gate as one of the nation's elite tournaments. Um, it went away for a couple of years in its back now and while I wouldn't say it's returned to that same level of prominence. It was a very strong field umbc had our stacked a team there. We had some excellent trials. Ah your top 5 finishes in. Order. The tournament winner was Michigan right after Michigan was emory then South Carolina then Harvard and then toughs. So certainly a. Very very strong field there and by the way Michigan Emory and South Carolina were all tied at 7 wins. They had a cs tiebreak to determine their placements and Harvard and tufts were all tied at their bore. Both tied at six and a half wins ah so just. You know we've said this before a drew that occasionally we're at risk of sounding like a bit of a broken record but I think each of these teams in some of our earlier preview episodes. We've highlighted. You know we had Ben Wallace on the show and the reason we did that was in part because of how strong South Carolina has been Harvard is Harvard. 05:23.69 Drew Um. 05:30.76 bengarmoe Michigan is Michigan Emory is having a really strong season. We saw them not too long ago. Toughs is having a really strong season. We saw them pretty recently. Um, it just this group of teams does not surprise me in the least. Ah, my only other observations so we had some really good trials. Had a really good round against Stanford um, my team was thrilled. We were hoping to hit Wisconsin and we hit them in round one and had a really great split um with them we hit and why you like a lot of cool teams that that we don't get to see as often. Um, we're thrilled to see Stanford who we played at nationals last year but just don't get to play very often. So that was a lot of fun drew what stood out to you I know you weren't at q 8 but of course you've looked at the tab. Summary. So what stands out to you about this tab. Summary. 06:16.21 Drew Well obviously right at the top when we have Michigan. That's always going to stand out. But I think when you look at their path. You realize that not only were they at the top but they had a really difficult path to get there. Um in their second round they managed to sweep uva. And this is just a few weeks after uva dominated ga you know I I really think that that to me is is a noteworthy result I was very intrigued by that. Of course Michigan wasn't at Gati so to me I'm kind of looking at that and I'm thinking to myself. Okay, you know, maybe Michigan. Is that team that we should really be looking at um, come you know nationals and beyond as just a a team that might be a final round contender I mean they're just so so typically so good. Um, and and I'm excited to see what they can put together for the the amtas season but definitely. And encouraging result when you're able to go 7 and 1 at this type of field and and to sweep a team like uva that has just come off such a big win. Um, definitely that caught my eye. But yeah I think what you mentioned is true I mean these are just all the teams that we always talk about. They're always really good. Um. I think that there isn't a whole lot more to it other than good teams being good. Um and I will I'll just briefly say I'm so glad to see kubate back I know you mentioned this Ben but it is great to see that tournament coming back having such a prominent and impressive field. We love that I'm glad that we're. 07:34.47 bengarmoe Yeah. 07:43.84 Drew You know, getting some of these prominent tournaments back I think New York went from having some of the biggest tournaments to having none of them. Um, and you know seeing cubate come back. Maybe we can get the downtown back at some point um and sort of see the New York resurgence of its preeminent. Ah. You know and fantastic tournaments that they host. 08:02.72 bengarmoe Yeah I think that's such a good point about New York tournaments um there's something really special about getting to go to a tournament in New York um you know you spend half your budget but ah. Like it's just fun. We took the train in because it's just such an easy trip up from Baltimore on the northeast regional I know um it was funny. We saw. Ah we ended up on the same train as stevenson our friends at Stevenson who were going to yale and so they had a couple extra stops going north and then on the way home. We ended up on the same train as them and gw. Um, so you know we're all. The same thing but um, totally agree about New York totally agree about kubate for the first time back I thought that kubate ah which I believe was mostly a student run tournament I know Nat Warner was there helping out in some capacity but was mostly a student run tournament was run really well. We had a really nice time. The facilities were good. 08:47.57 Drew Um. 08:54.86 bengarmoe Um, you know the the tournament ran largely on time judging was good. So ah, really no complaints and was just really happy to be back in New York the last point that I'll make before we talk about another tournament is I saw on impeachments the other day there was something really cool that was posted. Um, it was a ah ah. User called mock trial a p which I think is supposed to stand for mock trial associated press for those of you sports fans out there I think it's sort of supposed to simulate like the coaches poll in in like college basketball or college football and so people are able to vote um and unsurprisingly Harvard is is the. 09:17.56 Drew Um, he. 09:33.10 bengarmoe You know far and away leader but a couple of the teams that we see on this list including Michigan is currently sitting at number 7 on this list tough sitting at number four usc light number 2 So some of the teams. We've already talked about clearly the community at large is noticing their success as well. Um I think that's really it. 09:50.50 Drew Um. 09:52.89 bengarmoe That I have on cub eight Drew we had just a really great experience. There. We played I think the only team I didn't mention that we played was american we always really like hitting them. Um saw ah gold patron Mike Romano friend of the pot. Amanda Monel we're both there coaching american and just you know had a great trial between 2 teams who. Know each other and like each other ah here in the Northeast. So I think that's all I've got. Do you want to go ahead and take us a little bit further north to New Haven and yale. 10:19.58 Drew Certainly so I think pretty much the other major tournament that's going on that first week of December is of course hosted by yale um, and the yale's tournament ended up with well I'll go through the top 5 competitors or top 5 teams I apologize. Ah, first we had Notre Dame with seven and a half wins followed by Illinois with 7 wins then Harvard with six and a half then we had Smu with 6 wins and then this random small school in the greater Philadelphia area called Haverford that ended with five and half wins in fifth place. Um, ah you know a lot of the amta reps have pronounced it that way over the years ah but yeah, really really proud of them. Um, obviously I couldn't be more happy with them. They're getting such a strong showing. Um the have for kids have been working their tails off and I'm just thrilled for them. 10:53.60 bengarmoe Um, I thought it is is it pronounced haveford. That's what I thought hey yeah. 11:11.99 Drew I will fully admit that I have not been ah as involved this fall with them as as in some previous years or really at all. Um, and this really all goes out to them. They did some amazing work and I'm really happy for them and I'm excited to see what they can do moving forward, but um, honestly at the top of this list. Notre Dame I mean wow I think this is a really impressive showing out of them. We just kind of talked about Michigan but Notre Dame kind of another midwest school that is really showing off when they come down to the East Coast um I find they're ah very very much so a team that I'm looking at as a. Not just a nationals team but a a final round potential contender. Um in Notre Dame I think that you know we just mentioned Harvard. You see that Harvard's doing well at yale and at qubate and you realize that that must mean that they're um, you know sending a a and a b or 2 split teams. Um, and both are placing in the top 5 um, that is just freakish and extremely impressive to me. Um, both very tough fields and ah, there's a reason why everyone thinks Harvard is the odds on favorite twin at all. Um I think that Illinois coming in second there was a bit of a surprise to me I don't. Feel like we always hear Illinois as often but look going 7 and 1 at Yale I mean that is putting them on the map for sure. So I'm excited to to see more from them for sure and just find out more about what they're doing but their only loss was to harvard I mean they split with Harvard. Um. 12:44.63 Drew And other than that they took care of business. So really excited for them. Excited to you know, find out whats what's going on. Um, but the Midwest definitely had a really strong showing um here at yale which I always as we've talked about before I kind of always love seeing. Ah you know other parts of the country come in and dominate a ah an East Coast tournament but Ben anything else that you're seeing that I've I've missed. 13:07.88 bengarmoe Yeah, you pointed out most everything I'll just add on a few things completely agree about Notre Dame I'm looking here at ah Tpr and last year so Notre Dame a is currently ranked forty eighth in the country. Ah they pulled a nationals bid last year for the first time in a little while. And got 5 ballots at nationals. So ah, definitely an impressive showing from them. They're a team that I think has been on the rise for a little while and has really just been putting things together. Um I know a friend of the pod gold patron Henry Lehman is a coach there and they're just a really impressive team that I think um. 13:33.12 Drew Um. 13:43.39 bengarmoe You know, certainly could continue to burst onto the scene in the midwest a place where there's a lot of really really good teams but still probably space for even more um and more like elite teams to kind of grow into that field and I could see Notre Dame being in there. Totally agree about Illinois we played there. B team at orcs last year and their b team was excellent. So it does not surprise me whatsoever ah to see ah illinois having success I think your point about Harvard is good. My guess and I do not know this for sure. But my guess from looking at the names on individual awards at cubate is that I think that harvard's. Probably at least stackedish um because the names that that maybe would be associated with the the a team that won the national championship appear to be ah individual award winners at kubate so I don't know if they're fully stacked but maybe they're stacked adjacent or something along those lines so Harvard certainly had a very strong performance. 14:22.66 Drew Um. 14:35.61 Drew Um. 14:38.61 bengarmoe I'll also note directly below have referred in sixth place was Michigan ah, whose name has already come up a couple of times and then I certainly don't want to give the short end of the stick to Smu who's a very very strong team and had a strong showing at Yale as well. Not a team that Drew and I are. 14:44.00 Drew Um, yeah. 14:56.15 bengarmoe Overly familiar with but a team whose name definitely comes up on some of these lists and I think had ah a strong performance. So I will note um and obviously we're focusing more on these two East Coast tournaments because they were really the 2 big tournaments. Not a lot of evidence in these tournaments of West Coast teams coming over. 15:14.96 Drew Um. 15:15.54 bengarmoe And and winning things. But I don't think there were a ton of West Coast teams you know like we hit Stanford Stanford had 2 teams at ah Cuba. But other than that I don't think there were a ton of of West Coast teams that came over this way. Ah so without them hard to say how much this means for the national field except you know Harvard. Michigan going to be good going to be in the hunt for that that ah national final round bid once we get there in April I think that's about it I have for Yale Drew anything else that you picked up on. 15:44.71 Drew I guess the only thing I just wanted to highlight I kind of mentioned the midwest teams but just the sheer number of them I mean if you just are looking at the the top teams and the honorable mentions we had Notre Dame Illinois smu Michigan eastern Kentucky Hillsdale and Texas. This does not sound like a tournament hosted in New Haven Connecticut um I just I kind of thought that was worth noting and is kind of an interesting ah result to see kind of the East Coast getting a little bit overshadowed. Um by by the the midwest on this one I mean i. Can't think of a way to say it differently. But I mean when you think about a yale tournament and the only ah East Coast teams that are placing in the top 9 are harvardhaverfordsuny and Suny Binghamton I mean that's a much shorter list than I just listed off for the Midwest so definitely midwest having a very impressive showing and and I kind of I think that this is one of the things that we're missing from Zoom trip mock trial is the kind of getting to play teams from around the country and letting regions kind of shine in that way. But I definitely I you know. Sometimes we we talk about how the East Coast is so dominant definitely not at the case at yale. 17:06.99 bengarmoe Yeah I think that's a good point. Um I you know and it's not like there aren't any names as you know East Coast names I'm kind of scrolling through here and you see plenty of names that we talk about on a not infrequent basis. How stacked those teams are who they are. You know that matters. But at the same time it kind of doesn't when you've got. 17:15.51 Drew Um, me. 17:24.44 bengarmoe Ah, penn state Georgetown Maryland Cornell Lincoln Center Toughs Rutgers you know pen none of these teams and there's several others like yeah, right, that's basically the East Coast that I that I that I've named and and is a little surprising um not to see you know them end up that way. Although the other thing I will. 17:30.59 Drew Yeah, you're naming them all you know like. 17:44.00 bengarmoe Note: I believe I'm correct about this as I'm scrolling through here I don't see Yale So I think Yale maybe didn't compete at their own tournament. Um, yeah. 17:51.83 Drew I Think you're right about that I think that Yale may I know that in the past Yale did the crazy bonkers thing of hosting a 50 plus obscenely large tournament and competing with all 3 of their teams there. I think that they have ah finally decided that that may be not the most. Ah, the easiest thing to pull off. Yeah I Guess you could say that um and it does seem that they are. They're focused on the hosting and and making sure that it runs well which I think everyone can appreciate I think it it takes a very specific set of people. 18:15.51 bengarmoe Sane thing to do yeah. 18:27.84 Drew To be able to run a tournament and compete in it and I don't know many of them. But ah I think that it's it. It makes some sense hosting a tournament of their size. Um that they may not be able to compete, especially if they only have 2 teams um competing at this point. 18:43.74 bengarmoe Yep I totally agree with that. Ah so let's talk about some case changes we've we've talked about our December invites and our other really big story that's happened since the last time we recorded is of course we got our December case changes. Um, we are obviously not. 18:48.40 Drew Um, let's do it. 19:00.20 bengarmoe Going to go through every single case change that happened. Ah even in a normal year that would be kind of difficult in a year like this this that would be especially difficult and the main reason for that Drew is because there was a lot of case changes. Ah I've been through you know now I guess 9 or 10 or eleven amp to seasons. 19:11.77 Drew Who. 19:19.35 bengarmoe And I don't really have a clear recollection of seeing case changes this in-d depth. There's one or two years back in the day that maybe could rival this a little bit. You know I think back to the um, the the park v duran case when we got a completely new note at the December case changes stuff like that. But. Other than that I can't think of a whole lot of examples. You know that apply here a couple of things worth noting. Ah the ah Mandy Navarra situation we essentially got a new witness because we now have a p navarra and a d navarra which I saw there was a brief conversation about this on impeachments as far as I'm aware. 19:48.24 Drew No. 19:57.69 bengarmoe That hasn't happened since Bancroft and Covington when we had peehide and deyde. Um, so it's been a while since amta has done that they added sort of a pseudo swing witness Aubrey Roy who was a pee witness is now a swing witness with plaintiff priority which I have some thoughts on that. Um, and then there's just a lot. 20:15.50 Drew Um. 20:17.38 bengarmoe Of specific changes. You know Ari Felder is a felon now. Casey Kohler is a disgusting human being now like you know who who? ah I mean look I will say ari feld or Casey Kohler did make the ultimate mistake they went on a podcast. Um and just you know. 20:26.38 Drew Um, the. 20:36.20 Drew Um, never do that right? No cold mikes here. 20:37.25 bengarmoe You should they should have known they should have known never go on a podcast. Um and you know right? No exactly right? like we we would ask we would have prevented it. We would ask questions and then Casey Kohler wouldn't have gotten himself in so much trouble but drew your thoughts on the case changes now that you've had a chance to read through them. 20:44.11 Drew True. Yes, of course. 20:52.20 Drew So I'll be honest that I think I did a double take when I read them because I was like wait are we already at orcs like it really seemed like these were orcs type of case changes where we're getting new exhibits. We're getting new. Witnesses to a certain extent. We're getting I mean really massive overhauls to the affidavits I usually think of the December case changes as being like a few tweaks here and they are adding in a line or 2 to kind of help you know balance some things but I mean I I definitely do not recall the last time. It was this substantial of a change at the December stage I got to say that I love it. I think it's a lot of fun. Um, and I know that Ben and I may disagree on this but I think it's actually better for mock trial to have really substantial changes. But I'm really excited about it and I think that it's it's worth noting. Um. I don't know how many people actually look at the case balance memo. But I think that that often tells a very helpful story in terms of understanding what the case writers were thinking about when they made the case changes that they did and when you look at the the case balance. You know the numbers that jump out are the fact that Casey Kohler is getting called. In 85% of trials Ari Felder in 75% and you don't have you know, really any other witnesses that are that close you know Shahid was at about 73% but those were clearly the 2 far and away most commonly called witnesses and I think it's fair to try to weaken those to try to encourage other calls. 22:23.57 Drew Um, there are some witnesses that are below ah 50% of the time getting called and it's nice to kind of boost those up a little bit and kind of encourage. Ah a little more variety with our cases I think that's a lot of fun and I think that looking at that case balance memo can make it ah can make the changes make a little bit more sense. Um. On. That note you notice that there was a pretty substantial plain of advantage of about three and a half percent um overall on the case balance I don't remember it off the top of my head but that feels more substantial than I can recall past years' the advantage being whether it was pord um, I do think that usually around case changes time. Um there's usually a slight p bias and we often justify it with you know as the year goes on. We get more de-biased and then when we get to regionals. There's usually a dbias in response to that. But I got to say um the three and a half percent p advantage is enough that I understand why they wanted to give the defense a little bit more which I think is apparent and the case changes that they wanted to give a lot of the defense theories a lot more substance and more actual evidence to point to in support of those theories you know without getting into a ton of detail. Clearly a ton was added for assumption of risk for retinal stroke for a lot of the less commonly heard defense theories some of the other affirmative defenses definitely got a boost which if you go back to our old episode is a lot of what we predicted was going to happen. Um I think it makes a lot of sense to do that and I'm hoping that it accounts for. 23:58.98 Drew That p bias that we have so far I will be honest that on my initial read of these I think they might have done just a little like a hair too much and helped the defense just a little bit more than they maybe needed to. Um, and I'm expecting us to have a a fairly substantial d-bias when we get to regionals but you know I don't think that that's the end of the world I don't I don't think that that's necessarily a problem or a reason to dislike these changes. That's just kind of my thought on them. Um, but Ben I'll kind of toss it back to you? What is your kind of overall thought and I know you. Kind of eluded earlier that you're maybe not a fan of doing so many changes at once. 24:38.70 bengarmoe Yeah I'll try to be fairly succinct because I have a lot of thoughts on the on the case changes. But but many of them are a little bit more like ground level. So philosophically I don't like having this many changes I think that it's just not. The way that our season is designed I think it's a bit disproportionate in that we spend the better part of two and a half months airing out, you know every single possible theory that we can think of and we really try to dig into this. And we start to figure it out and then the goal of case changes right? is to balance the case without sort of blowing up the case you know the orcs case changes are what'd you say. 25:24.10 Drew Is pretty much since smitherreens right now I Its pretty much in smithereens right now like eat they blew it up. 25:31.90 bengarmoe Yeah, it it is and it's tough because I think this is a really good case and I respect the hell out of Sam And Elise and everyone on that committee I think they've done a fantastic job this year and so I do not think this is going to like ruin the season or anything like that. But I don't know it just feels kind of like a new case and. I guess for me, it's like so there's so much going back to the drawing board and while yes, there's an interesting element of competition there I don't know I'm just not a big fan of it. Um I really don't like having a p and a d affidavit for the same witness I just don't like it. That is not how I would have solved the problem that they clearly did that to solve I think that's all I'll say about that the last point that I'll make is and I'm still sort of figuring out how I feel about this um, kind of as we go but I am a little uncomfortable with the notion that. The committee appears and this is just rank speculation I've not spoken to a single person about their thinking even if I did they probably wouldn't tell me but it feels like they're like well most teams or a lot of teams are doing engine failure and not a lot of teams are doing this defense in that defense. 26:45.27 Drew Um. 26:45.93 bengarmoe And so we're going to try to boost those up I'm not necessarily convinced. That's their job like maybe they want to do it a little bit. Um, but I mean if if like the whole point of this activity is for teams to decide what they think works and I I Just think that. Too much I think that could backfire pretty quickly I think it could end up in a situation where they take away the defense that everybody's been running or weaken it significantly a lot of people change their defenses and then all of a sudden we still end up with a P bias because nobody's D case is confident because everybody switched it up because they. 27:21.98 Drew Um, and it. 27:24.78 bengarmoe Felt like they had no Choice. So I don't know to me it feels like we've lived in this case for ah, several months and now I feel like you know it's It's like you know I clean my kitchen and now I can't find anything like I you know I I'm not sure that I have my bearings in the case yet still think it's a good case. Several of the case changes I like and I think will be interesting I Just think they went a little too far to solve a problem that was there but maybe didn't need this much tinkering ah to fix. 27:52.30 Drew So I think that everything you said I agree with the underlying facts I just disagree with your conclusion. So I totally agree that this has the potential to force defense defenses to totally overhaul their defense I think that this also means that plaintiffs now have to. Prepare for and expect that there might be some other defenses that they need to basically defend against because they are inherently affirmative defenses and that means that you as a plaintiff need to think through. Okay, if they're going to claim assumption of risk we need to have something to say about that we can't just. Power through thinking it's going to be engine failure like that is not going to work anymore. Um I think that that is a good thing overall because I think it forces us to not become robots that are just doing the same thing over and over and over I totally hear Ben's point I think it makes it like It's totally valid. You had the invite season to practice to work things out to get through kinks I think that that is is what I think that that still helps I think that you still people that have been doing the case that have running been running various theories that is obviously still going to help them. Think it will still benefit them. But I think now what's going to happen is instead of you know you've gone to 4 or 5 different tournaments and you've seen a bunch of different theories and you found the other team the you know the best team that you saw ran this and that worked really well so you're just doing it too. I think it kind of puts everyone on reset and now. 29:27.75 Drew Will allow the truly creative um teams the ones that come up with really creative and interesting theories to kind of get a little bit more of an edge through their creativity because there are so many more directions that the events can go frankly, there are more directions that the plaintiff can go to um but it just it. It gives. A lot more room for creativity and I think that that is going to end up benefiting those creative teams and just all the really great teams out there that are going to put in the work that are going to actually take the time to memorize this new stuff and and fix a new theory I think it will benefit them as well. And the people that this hurts the most are the kind of mid-level teams that thrive off of utilizing what they've learned through invites and just adopting whatever is the best thing that they've seen I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that hell I've definitely done it myself. But I do think that. Um, it's good to give the edge back to those teams that are the original. Ah, you know origins of the creative theory or the the those of us that are working double time to get it all memorized and learned I like giving them the edge and I don't have a problem with that. I don't think that the case being blown up is a problem I think that the the bare bones are all still there and that's what's important that being said, all of that being said I am a fan of these changes. The 1 thing that I think I'm not a fan of um and this is a very specific thing but it is the same thing ben hit on. 31:00.70 Drew And that is the 2 different affidavits for the same witness I don't like it because I think one it is confusing to prep two I think judges will very often get confused by this I think it is like I mean if you are a judge and you judge a d navarra. 31:11.19 bengarmoe Yeah. 31:17.67 Drew And then they come up on p and they don't say all that stuff. That's really damning. You're like what the heck just happened. Why didn't they bring up all this really damning stuff I just don't like that I think it's not really fair and I think that it it just has the potential to cause tons of confusion. And be very problematic overall I also have an issue with the kind of priority swing witness that they've done with Roy where they made Roy into a swing witness which I actually think was kind of cool. Um, but I don't know how I feel about making him a priority call for the plaintiff where they can. Declare that they're going to exercise their right to call Roy but they don't have to use their first witness on it like I don't I don't really understand that I mean I think it's trying to protect teams that that called Roy before that want to still call him that also wanted to call another swing witness and now they're kind of stuck. Um, and they don't want to force plaintiffs to prep a third like a fourth option in case, they lose their second swing I kind of think the defense has already do that and just make plaintiff do it as well. But I don't know Ben what? what are your thoughts on this whole swing priority swing business. 32:29.19 bengarmoe I just don't get it like I I and and look maybe we're just missing it and like the committee you know I mean I know the committee is smarter than us. So maybe we are just missing it but like like not that we're you know that we're dumb guys. But I think Sam and Elise know what they're doing. But. 32:32.31 Drew Yeah I don't either. 32:48.12 bengarmoe I don't I just don't think it changes anything like I guess okay in a world where p isn't calling Roy it gives the defense another option but it doesn't change anything for me. It doesn't change anything in terms of the equation of calling or not calling kohler. 32:58.73 Drew Um. 33:07.51 bengarmoe Because if you now have a fourth swing and peak and only guarantee one then on d if you don't want to call Kohler which some teams do some teams don't in the past. It's been tough because you really have to have all 3 swings prepped. But if one of the the swings that existed the whole year. 33:24.21 Drew Um. 33:27.11 bengarmoe Is a swing that you just don't want or you feel like you don't have someone who can play play that swing having Roy is a true swing could open the door to some interesting new theories. But now you can't plan on having them. You can't really ever plan on that because p they're they're not really a swing witness like they call them a priority. 33:37.51 Drew Right? right. 33:45.92 bengarmoe A swing witness with with plaintiff priority. That's a fake term they're they're not actually a swing witness. They can be called by both sides but you know a swing witness should have an equal odds of being called for both sides and Roy obviously does not so I don't get it I totally agree with you on the navarra point. and and I think I'll end with this on on case changes I feel like I've really kind of sounded sour on them I think there's some really good ones I think that they've gone in and made some nuanced points especially with some of the experts. They've picked apart some of the points that I think teams were getting a little lazy about you know, relying on and I don't disagree with your creativity points. 34:15.19 Drew Um. 34:23.27 bengarmoe But I think if this is the way things are going to be moving forward I feel like we just need to be more clear about that because I think that there's value in like repetition to the level of perfection I'm not saying that we should all become robots and I think that's a really valid point but I also think. 34:28.39 Drew Yeah, that's fair. 34:34.74 Drew Um, yeah. 34:42.85 bengarmoe Part of the appeal of Orcs is you have to be so damn good to get through right and it's not just creativity. You also just have to be polished. You have to be prepared. You have to be perfected all of those things if you really want to get through the the juggernaut that is Orcs and. 34:47.87 Drew Um. 34:58.42 bengarmoe I don't want to lose the emphasis on polish and preparation and go totally over to just creativity and really outlandish case theories not saying this will happen but I could see a world in which this could push us that direction. Overall I think it's a good case I think case changes are fine and with a few things. That we've pointed out aside I don't think they're going to change a ton about what's going to happen over the next couple months 35:21.29 Drew You know something that does occur to me with this is that if this becomes the new trend I kind of would love for the invitational season and the the pre-december case changes to become more of like less of a testing grounds of theory. And more a testing grounds of people and more about letting people do roles that they wouldn't normally do and giving that person that's been a witness for 3 years a shot at being an attorney um and letting people or you know they've always been an expert and they want to try a crier like whatever it might be. Letting people try something a little bit different I think would be like a fine change. But I think to your point Ben that just needs to be clear. We need to all be on the same page that hey the December case changes are going to be substantial enough that you should not be expecting theories to remain the same through the whole season. Um. You can. It's not that you can't but there are going to be substantial enough changes that most teams should expect their their theories and themes are going to be different after the December case changes and if you want to have an unstack season and stack in December and then basically start from scratch once you get those case changes. That that is a perfectly acceptable and kind of expected um way for most teams to go I wouldn't have a problem with that if that becomes the new trend and that becomes the new expectation I just think it does need to be clear that hey these December changes are going to be the substantial year after year because there have been other years where it's literally just a few lines tweaked. 36:58.89 Drew And and you know everything else stays the same. Basically um I think that I also just wanted to note on because we were talking about the whole priority swing I feel like kind of a fun maybe more interesting to me solution would have been to not give the priority swing. But to make it a pdpd ah priority call. So the defense doesn't get 2 in a row and it means that it kind of further games it out for everyone and if the plaintiff wants to call 2 swings or the defense wants to call 2 swings. They do have to account for it. But I just kind of. Um, know to me that feels like a more interesting way to go about this than giving the weird priority because I agree with you Ben I think it's it's very difficult to bank on getting Roy when as defense when the plaintiff can just say oh we're going to take him but we're all or her or they um they can have roy. And also get their other swing like that just feels odd so all right? We we've kind of belabored that point enough Ben. Do you want to go ahead and take us to the cicc opinion. 38:03.76 bengarmoe Yeah I Totally agree with you I think that a lot of interesting things will come from these case changes and bottom line is we've all got a lot of work to do um, all right? so to round out this episode. We do want to talk for just a couple moments. 38:08.85 Drew Yeah, yeah, this we do. 38:17.57 bengarmoe About the first set of 4 advisory opinions from the competition integrity committee which if you think back to our ah summer episode about the board meeting. That's the committee that replaced the competition response committee and has been chosen by Jonathan Woodward specifically to deal with issues of invention and. They've started issuing these advisory opinions. There were 4 that were issued I would characterize them I'm going to use the phrase underwhelming but I don't mean that with like a negative connotation I think they were useful I think they were just largely non-controversial. So the first one is is. Pretty straightforward. It says may felder or Kohler invent facts. Not reasonably inferred from their depositions. Um, and also that has a couple of other examples of things that felder or Kohler can or can't say this seems to me geared a little bit more towards teams who maybe have a little bit less experience who. You know so some of the more nuanced questions in here for the example, there's a question about um, testifying to events after their depositions um stuff like that you know could be useful but but I don't think there was too much going on there um opinion two had to do with reasonable inferences I thought this one was a little bit useful. 39:21.39 Drew Um. 39:32.80 bengarmoe Ah, because it talks about how like even though a witness and I'll use air quotes here should know a fact and in real life probably would know a fact doesn't mean that you can automatically assume that they do know that fact just because the fact is elsewhere in the case which I think is a helpful reminder ah to teams. Ah. 39:42.34 Drew Um, in here. 39:50.58 bengarmoe Opinion 3 had to do with demonstratives. This was the one that I thought was most interesting and that it sort of provided additional context for the changes to the demonstrative rules. Especially since like I've seen some pretty wild piston engines out there over the last couple of weeks 40:04.12 Drew So. 40:06.32 bengarmoe And I think it's a good reminder for all of us. What you you can and can't do with demonstratives and then the last opinion dealt with names of experts methods and gives some clarification on what you can and can't do with naming an expert witness and or specifically naming the method for an expert witness I thought this one was. Interesting, but really just came down to what was already said at the board meeting this past summer which was like yeah if you want to have the art method or the Joe Method or whatever. That's fine, but it can't. 40:38.60 Drew Um, and. 40:40.72 bengarmoe Invent a material fact. It just has to be like an easy way to organize your director your cross or whatever it is so all in all I don't think these advisory opinions you know are going to shake the amta community. But I think they're positive I have strongly encouraged my teams to read them and I strongly encourage all of you out there to read them as well. And I'm looking forward to seeing this process continue to develop as the Cic gets integrated into our community. So Drew ah, what did you notice about these opinions. What stood out to you about them. 41:10.16 Drew Yeah I don't want to belabor this because I think Ben you you covered them well and I think that what you started to say at the beginning is is my kind of main takeaway that this is just not not anything new to me I think this was reminders of things that. Should have been clear from the board meeting or from um, just some of the past. Ah you know correspondences essentially that have occurred regarding ah this rule and I don't have a problem with that I think that that was kind of their point. I think that just a lot of us were hoping that they would get into some of the more edge case weirder examples. But I think that they are kind of not going to do those because they don't want people to get confused and start treating it as precedent and then say oh well that opens us up to this or that you know i. Get that I mean I I understand why I think that um you know I think everyone was talking about this but the whole you know using navarra in the past this is I you know I think 90% of teams ran some form of defense similar to this so I don't think this is unveiling anything too crazy. But. 42:22.70 bengarmoe Now Definitely not. 42:24.30 Drew I think a lot of teams utilized navarra to say you know this employee did a bad thing and as a result you know, ah navarra wasn't saying this directly but their theory is that it's really that person's fault and that they are the one who is at fault not Reese Campbell um and there's this kind of tough like okay, well if this is your business. You're almost certainly going to be vicariously liable for that employee who was you know working and in their capacity as your employee. Um at fault so isn't that a. Isn't that violating the new rule we have about um, not having a witness basically take the fall for you and and not accusing your own witness. Um, and how are we supposed to deal with that. Um, and I think it's a very fair question I mean I think that it's. I was sort of surprised that they wrote it into the case initially so much because that was such an unclear or not maybe unclear, but that was such a clear issue before that got kind of muddied by this ah particular witness. Um I will admit I think that the case changes have pretty much solved it. You know. Novarre is no longer the the owner of that business. Um and would not be in any way liable for the actions of any of its employees that aren't navarra themselves. Um, so I don't think it is in any way, an issue now but I kind of wished we could have gotten some more. 43:56.60 Drew Insight into the way the Cic thinks and the way that they view these rules. Um, if they'd written something about that. Um, but you know ah again I I understand why they aren't I just you know as we've said a million and a half times I think that more information being out there. To help people better understand these very nuanced and and difficult to understand rules would be better. Not worse for the community. But um, Ben I'll toss it back to you see what you thought of all of that. 44:27.11 bengarmoe Yeah I think I basically agree with you I I definitely get why there isn't a Mandy Navarra guilty portrayal ah opinion. But also I kind of wish there was we actually submitted. 44:37.35 Drew Um, right right. 44:42.76 bengarmoe Ah, a request for one based on a interaction we had and around earlier in the season I know other coaches who did the same um I will say I think my last thought on these I I think the 1 thing that we could run the risk of with opinions like this. Is like them just becoming more invention memos as opposed to advisory opinions. You know like I think that these are helpful and I actually think if you parse them a little bit. There's some helpful information that could be useful moving forward but I would say 60 to 70% of this is like. 45:09.21 Drew Um. 45:20.84 bengarmoe Let's try again to teach teams rules that they should have already known. Um, you know it's like we don't need an advisory opinion that says Kohler and felder are allowed to invent outside of their depositions. 45:26.40 Drew Um. 45:35.86 bengarmoe That's written incredibly clearly in the case now some of the other stuff that's in that opinion. Sure useful I get why the committee put the the broader point in there. So go ahead. Okay. 45:41.50 Drew But you know but Ben I'll just really quickly say the fact that teams are submitting that question shows that they aren't clear about it. So I don't I don't have a problem with it being included I just I don't mind it being longer like I think that I think it's okay to say hey some of these are really quick and easy and like no, you cannot do that. I also think though that you should include you know a more in-depth explanation of some of those edge cases that we've been talking about I think that that's my big takeaway from it is not that they should do less that we should just have more. 46:15.12 bengarmoe So I don't disagree with that point at all Actually I Just think that if teams are unclear about if teams are unclear to the point where they're submitting that like that broader question then clearly they just didn't read the case closely enough and they're not going to read this opinion either? Um, but. 46:29.88 Drew Um, this sir. 46:33.26 bengarmoe What's funny right? is I actually completely agree with your point I don't have any problem with it being in there I Just what I want these opinions to be used for in the future is helping to solve tough questions and clearly the toughest question the committee decided I think we can speculate pretty clearly. 46:41.58 Drew Yes, exactly. 46:50.29 bengarmoe That the ah committee decided we're going to handle it through case changes instead of through an advisory opinion I get why they did that I don't think that's going to be the solution every time in the future. It'll be interesting to see how these evolve. 46:54.93 Drew Um. 47:04.80 Drew Yep I couldn't agree more I think that we've we've definitely covered it I look forward to future cicc opinions I think that this was on the whole a benefit and helpful I just I think that both Ben and I are in agreement that it could have been a lot more helpful and we wish that it was. 47:19.36 bengarmoe Well, that is pretty much everything that we've got on the docket for today. Ah, this of course is our last episode of 2022 will be back in your feeds in 2023 I don't think we've fully discussed whether or not it's going to be. Immediately two weeks into 2023. It might be a little bit later in January because we've both got a ton of stuff going on but we'll get back on our schedule our normal schedule and then of course once we roll around to February we've got regionals and orcs and nationals to break down so a lot of really exciting things to talk about there. 47:39.30 Drew Um, no. 47:52.50 bengarmoe Ah, Jerome I'm going to kick it back to you in a second for any final thoughts but before I do that of course as we wrap up, we do have to thank our wonderful Patreon and Discord Community it's been such a awesome addition to the mock review portfolio for lack of a better term and I do want to take a moment to thank the gold patrons who've choose. Chosen to be identified and that includes Mike Romano the family of Daniel Sosa and Darius Peru Ian Lampert Andrew Hinkley Kate hayner slattery Henry Lehman Felix Badakarria Ben Rathsome and Don Martin we are so grateful to each one of you to everyone who's joined our Patreon. And our discord and to everyone out there I hope and and I'm sure that Drew does as well that you have a wonderful and safe holiday in whatever form you are celebrating ah drew any final thoughts for the mock trial world for 2022 before we wrap this episode up. 48:35.80 Drew Um. 48:46.66 Drew Yeah, it has been a crazy year, but definitely, um, excited for all the things that we have coming in 2023 um, wishing everyone a happy and safe holidays just like Ben just said and I'll briefly plug. It. The discord guys we were talking a lot about the case changes there if you're not already there. We'd love to have you if you already are we're happy to have you and look forward to more fun and interesting discussions. Um I got to say I think that the next time we record though is probably going to be either right right before or probably more likely after. Um, I've finished returning to the horrible world of hosting an invite. Um the battle in the bayou of course is on January Fourteenth and fifteenth so I ah hopefully I'll still have my head on straight by that time but ah, definitely looking forward to it should be a lot of fun if for any reason there's a team out there that. That doesn't have a invite plan for that weekend and you want 1 You can feel free to reach out to us. Um, we can try and make something work. We just had um a team or 2 dropouts. We have a few open spots on our waitlist and we'd love to have you but otherwise I'm I'm looking forward to it and yeah, just. Lots to look forward to in 2023 for sure. 50:02.81 bengarmoe Yep I totally agree with you that that weekend that you're hosting battle at the bayou I believe will be the first of if I remember my calendar correctly Thirteen consecutive mock trial weekends for me. So yeah, no, it's just turns out running 2 programs at the same time is a lot of work. Um. 50:13.65 Drew Hoof goodness me. 50:19.34 Drew There you go. 50:19.69 bengarmoe But you know what I love it. Can't imagine any better job in the world. Um, and can't imagine anything better than get to sit getting to sit on the microphones and talk about all of the great things that have happened this year as you. 50:28.82 Drew Ben you're literally getting paid to do that thing that we all did in college that was a total like time suck that everyone was like oh if only I could get credit for this or get paid this. You're you're actually living the dream of all college mock trial students. So I don't want to hear it enjoy your thirteen weeks of mock trial. 50:48.21 bengarmoe Yeah, when when I'm sitting in the Atlanta airport. Ah, after my amtor wrapping weekend and just desperately wanting to be in my own bed with my dog I'll think of that and and remember the that I'm living the dream. Um, but you know what you're not wrong I have a great job I love getting to do what I do and I love. 50:48.41 Drew You're getting paid for it and lucky you. 50:56.45 Drew There you go there, you go. 51:06.42 bengarmoe Getting to have this podcast ah with podcast has grown in 2022 I think we've had a lot of great things. Um and look. You know we we did 75 episodes a couple episodes ago. 100 is starting to peek over the horizon. So yeah, it's it'll be a fun one. 51:18.14 Drew Stop I Can't even imagine that's crazy all righty. 51:24.25 bengarmoe All right? Well everyone as we've mentioned have a wonderful and safe holiday season. A great new year. We will be back in your feeds in 2023 until then this has been the mock review with Ben And Drew